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+--- Thread: Radon and D Layer questions (/showthread.php?tid=196)
Radon and D Layer questions - Skywise - 02-13-2015
Duffy, in your post with all those charts (which was really informative), you mentioned that you believe radon that is released prior to an earthquake may be interacting with the D Layer of the ionosphere, as a possible explanation for your measurements.
Radon gas has a density of 9.73 grams/liter, and sea level standard pressure air is only 1.2 g/L. That means radon is 8 times heavier than air. This is why it's such a danger in unventilated spaces such as basements.
The D layer region, although the lowest layer of the ionosphere, is generally 60km to 90km high.
How would you explain for radon to get up that high?
I don't think radon would explain your measurements. Even so, that doesn't negate your theory. Just that your suggested causal mechanism may be incorrect.
Brian
RE: Radon and D Layer questions - Duffy - 02-14-2015
(02-13-2015, 04:43 AM)Skywise Wrote: Duffy, in your post with all those charts (which was really informative), you mentioned that you believe radon that is released prior to an earthquake may be interacting with the D Layer of the ionosphere, as a possible explanation for your measurements.
Radon gas has a density of 9.73 grams/liter, and sea level standard pressure air is only 1.2 g/L. That means radon is 8 times heavier than air. This is why it's such a danger in unventilated spaces such as basements.
The D layer region, although the lowest layer of the ionosphere, is generally 60km to 90km high.
How would you explain for radon to get up that high?
I don't think radon would explain your measurements. Even so, that doesn't negate your theory. Just that your suggested causal mechanism may be incorrect.
Brian
your absolutely right Brian, my suggestion could be wrong, but seemed to be the only explination at the time that would fit the picture. I'm not the most intelligent of people, but I'm pretty good at adding two and two together, I know from past posts that you specialise in electronics, lasers and have a better than average knowledge of the electromagnetic spectrum. You can see how the traces in the image, drop instantaniously at the same time, and may have come to the same conclusion as I did having first set eyes on it, this has to be a power outage of some kind. Well, believe me, I went to extremes to cover all the bases here, National grid reports, independant circuit tests , Checking for anomolies in conductive plumbing (use to get EMI from laundry room on a regular basis), I even tried to find out which direction the nearest wind turbines were facing during this period.
You have to bear in mind here, I didn't do this for one strange anomolly, I recorded a similar one the week after, and a couple in april 2013, non of which were as extreme as the first. I came across the radon phenomona 3 or 4 days after the first image, but dismissed it because the Solomons are on the other side of the World. Having ruled out any localised influences, I did a little experimentation to try and replicate the trace dropoffs, including voltage reduction with a plant transformer and high current tests in the vicinity of the antenna. The closest I got was when I tried a garden hose to simulate rain fall, this didn't do anything at first, but when I altered the hose setting to a spray mist effect at a distance of 3 metres, the traces dropped, but directly vertical to the bottom of the screen, recovering 5 minutes later to normal levels. In one experiment, I let off a fire extinguisher at the antenna, much to the displeasure of Mother-in-law as all the surrounding conifer's resembled something out of a Christmas Disney movie, the theory being that an airbourn contaminant adheared to the antenna may be blocking signal reception (you car radio in a tunnel for instance). It's possible the men in white coats could take this place apart and find a perfectly logical reason, or are the EM signatures corrolated with Radon somehow?
After eliminating what I could, I searched for answers online and came across the radon again, as a hobbiest it still seems the only plausable explination I can come up with. I made notes at the time which at the moment elude me, but I did search online again last night and came across dozen's of published radon research projects (typed "VLF Radon" in Google), after 10 paper's and 2 cold coffee's, I noted down a couple of statements, as per your original question, "how is Radon able to achieve altitudes of 60-90km. I quote here from the conclusion of a report by the University of Tokyo and Geological society of Japan who were engaged in Radon testing, before, during and after the Kobe, Japan Earthquake of 17th January 1995.
"At present, it is difficult to suggest a plausable, physical or chemical mechanism of reflection hight decrease and corresponding modification of density and conductive profile".
In small words, I think this means they don't know, another report suggested "Tectonic stress-strain triggers CO2 outgassing, which in turn acts as a carrier for Radon gas". And a further report from researchers in Bad Bramburg in Germany, found that Radon anomolies "are" associated with seismic events. Of course there are others that counter act these reports, just as you counter acted my best Newton trivia in the VLF thread (take me a while to forgive you for that one
). Now, I'm not going to bring up the famous Sherlock Holms quote here, but if the scientists say that sugar is good for me, and others say it is bad, as a regular Joe public who do I believe?, if I think I maybe holding the sugar bowl, then who do I believe?.Finally, there is another feature in the image that could be of significance, and I couldn't believe that having this hanging on my wall for 14 months after recording, that I didn't notice the 3 large peaks at around 11:30 UT. It was only when the EM signals spurned a greater curiosity in me early in 2014, that I speculated weather this was an Earthquake related EM signature ?. Think I'll finish here before the men in white coats come back to take me away Ha Ha
.Duffy
RE: Radon and D Layer questions - Duffy - 02-20-2015
(02-13-2015, 04:43 AM)Skywise Wrote: Duffy, in your post with all those charts (which was really informative), you mentioned that you believe radon that is released prior to an earthquake may be interacting with the D Layer of the ionosphere, as a possible explanation for your measurements.
Radon gas has a density of 9.73 grams/liter, and sea level standard pressure air is only 1.2 g/L. That means radon is 8 times heavier than air. This is why it's such a danger in unventilated spaces such as basements.
The D layer region, although the lowest layer of the ionosphere, is generally 60km to 90km high.
How would you explain for radon to get up that high?
I don't think radon would explain your measurements. Even so, that doesn't negate your theory. Just that your suggested causal mechanism may be incorrect.
Brian
Hi Brian
I have just been reviewing my last post here, and realised I seemed to be ranting and quoting other researchers theories about the Radon phenomenon, which is un-scientific and can put the brakes on what could be an interesting debatable subject. I had attended a close Aunties funeral the day before and had a couple of beer's (German of course) which I'm not use to as I don't drink. I think the hangover showed itself on the key pad, so by way of appology, I've gone through the monitor archive, and found some interesting images to include in this Radon thread.
[attachment=59]
I thought I'd start with this image as I've found this intriguing because it contains several manmade and natural anomolies, and the theorised Radon phenomena. It was recorded on Friday 27th June 2014, there was a heavy thunder storm with major lightning activity persisting most of the day, which accounts for the chaotic trace lines. There was no Solar activity of any significance, and national grid reports showed no iregularities in the electrical supply.
It's obviouse from the image that something happened in the D-layer at 15:10 UT, and had the effect of lowering some traces and raising others. Not only that, it also appears the French navy (call sign"FTA") experienced some long term communication disruption during the trace drops. I could suggest this is routine again, but I've found 6 more in the archives, linked to EM anomolies, posted 3 on Earthwaves including this one, so I think coincidence is becoming the less favourable answer.
As for the cause of the trace instabilities, you can probably guess from my last post what I believe this is, but lets just assume this "could" be linked to the Radon phenomena. How its produced and propogates are the theories of other researchers, what matters here is, a) have I recorded a theoretical gas, b) if so, were did it originate from, and c) why have no other online VLF monitorists recorded the same signal.
The first question would suggest I've recorded something affecting the lower atmosphere, but has had the strange effect of lowering the radio ceiling for some traces (NRK Iceland, U-K 3 unknown, NSY Italy, NAU porto Rico) and slightly raising it for others (GBZ and GQD Scotish Borders). I have checked all the above posibilities, and I think equipment problems or human error can be ruled out, unless I pushed the wrong button and accidently zapped a French Sub in the process. When all known probabilities have been covered, you end up with someone elses theory that Radon Gas interacts with the lower atmosphere. I would welcome any suggestions of other causalities I may have missed or I'm unaware of.
If it is Radon Gas, were did it come from?, there are 3 posibilities, a leak from a nuclear power plant, or from volcanic or tectonic activity. The first two I haven't checked, but there were 2 mag 6+ Earthquakes 2 days later, (29th June) a 6.9 in the South Sandwich Islands region, South Pacific, and a 6.7 near Visokoi Island, South Atlantic. My money would be on Visokoi Island, it is closer to my location, and the Porto Rico trace (purple trace near bottom of image) in my experiance is a bit of a give away. Many off or low power stations near the noise line are generally unaffected by Solar activity, but can be influenced by phenomenon like this, and more so if high consentrations of something with EM properties is in the vicinity of the transmitter.
I did look online for data from other VLF sites, but we seem to be as rare as a four leaf clover, the few I did find, tend to compress their on screen data into 12 hour plot images, thus negating any chance of selecting finer detail. As luck would have it, I've recorded a very recent example to tag on here, I left the original black background because the detail is more disernable.
[attachment=62]
I recorded this image yesterday morning, (19th Feb) hoping it was building up to a predictable signal. First indication of anything here is the EM spiking before 10:00 UT, followed by a very small step up in the noise line at 10:08 UT. This carries through to NML (North Dakota) raising it prematurly before sunrise, at the same time a small down step appears in the dark blue line next to NML, this line represents Israel (call sign "UNID"). If you continue up, you come to the pale blue trace of the Italian navy (call sign "ICV") which drops due to signal loss (4 Subs and counting). At 10:28 UT, the noise line drops a few dB's, taking with it the bright blue trace of JXN Norway (Atomic clock signal) which is not transmitting at this time, and raising NML again for a further 45 minutes before it resumed normal levels. Finally, at 10:56 UT, there is a distinct drop in several traces at the 115 dB level, and causes disruption to other traces, including the Italian navy again, for a further 30 minutes.
I didn't see this untill I arrived home from work in the afternoon, it is a quake signature but I'm unsure why it's such a weak signal. The Earth is currently transiting a Solar wind stream at the moment, and has the effect of compressing the magnetic field, so this may have attributed to some kind of suppression. I purposely gave the best discription I could to show the advantage of un-compressed data, if this was a 12 hour plot screen image, very little of this would have been noticed. The monitors are very old tec, set at a specific rate to capture the fine detail, and couldn't handle larger sample rates, if it's found upgrading is worth the expendature, larger sample rates will be available in the future (hope Roger see's my point).
The significance of the image is, the EM signals and a possible Radon signature, Which could be related to the 6.4 quake in Vanuatu at couple of hours later at 13:18 UT. Or is it linked to the 6.3 in Miako, Japan at 04:25 UT this morning (20th Feb) which is doubtful as I believe this was an aftershock from the 6.7 on the 16th, and it doesn't usually record aftershocks. Heeding Chris's warning, this data couldn't be used as they cancel each other out.
A couple of questions, Brian; if Radon is a constituent of electromagnetism, do you think it's theoretically possible to detect in the VLF spectrum, from a given frequency?.
Taking the two images into account, and my location, I've theorised that if I am detecting radon, it could be propogating by means of Earths magnetic field lines, or somehow interacting with electrostatic energy in Global jet streams. any of this sound feasable?.
I have other examples I can use in future posts, including the May 2014 Etna eruption, when I find which laptop it's on. My broadband problem hasn't changed yet, so Im still using a friends desktop, I started talking science to him but he fell asleep!!!, so I took the oportunity to do this post.
I hope you found the images enlightening, and hopefully someone will have gained some knowledge from this, apart from Duffy can't handle his liquor, I think I've behaved myself in this post, but no guarantees for whoever posts me next (Haven't met Chris yet
).Duffy;
RE: Radon and D Layer questions - Skywise - 02-21-2015
(02-20-2015, 03:34 PM)Duffy Wrote: A couple of questions, Brian; if Radon is a constituent of electromagnetism, do you think it's theoretically possible to detect in the VLF spectrum, from a given frequency?.
There's a lot of facts about radon that really make it an unlikely player in causing the signal disturbances you see. Again, that doesn't invalidate the signals as possibly being related to quakes, just that radon does not play a roll.
The radon measurements used in studying earthquakes involve radon dissolved in ground water. So when you read about radon levels changing before an earthquake, they're talking about measurements in water wells or natural springs, not in the air.
On top of that, the amounts of radon being discussed are extremely small. A quick search found the following:
http://www.fujitaresearch.com/reports/earthquakes.html
Quote:Case Study Three: Kobe Earthquake, Japan (7)
Over the last twenty years the University of Tokyo and the Geological Society in Japan have monitored radon levels in groundwater in an effort to predict earthquakes in eastern Japan. One such well is located in the southern part of Nishinomiya city, about 30 km NE of the epicenter of the M=7.2 Kobe earthquake of 17 Jan 1995. The well was first monitored between 26 Nov and 02 Dec 1993, with continual monitoring starting on 27 Oct 1994.
During the 1993 observation period, concentrations of radon were stable at 20Bq/l. By the end of Nov 1994 levels had increased to 60Bq/l. On 7 Jan 1995 a huge increase in radon concentration was observed (to ca. 250Bq/l). These high levels dropped suddenly on 10 Jan, one week before the earthquake. By the time of the earthquake levels had returned to about 30 Bq/l, levels confirmed when the station came back on-line on 22 Jan (monitoring equipment had been damaged by the main shock).
To put some perspective on those numbers I need to explain what they mean. "Bq/l" is becquerels per liter. A becquerel is a unit of measure of radioactivity. Radioactivity is caused by the decay of radioactive elements, which radon is. One becquerel is one decay per second. So in the context of the quoted article 250Bq/l means 250 radon atoms are decaying per second in each liter of water. That's 250 atoms out of a whole liter of water, which if I did my math right, there are about 33,427,963,872,890,124,383,301,286.463491 molecules of water in a liter. So, a very tiny amount of radon.
Of course, that's only measuring the actual decaying particles. There's more radon than that waiting to decay. But the most stable isotope of radon has a half life of only 3.8235 days. That means that given a sample of radon, in 3.8235 days half of it has radioactively decayed. And half again in another 3.8235 days...etc.... After only 30 days, you only have 1/256th of the radon you started with.
As for radon released into the air, since we're already talking about such miniscule amounts, it's going to quickly get diluted into the atmosphere, like a fart in the wind. (did I say that?
) And as I mentioned previously radon is heavier than air. If it collects in any concentration, it's in low laying areas like basements and mines where there isn't much air circulation. Radon sinks to the ground and isn't likely to rise up 60km to the ionosphere without some updrafts to bring it there. I don't know of any updrafts that go that high. The highest thunderstorms only get 12km, maybe 15 km high. By way of comparison, the ozone layer is 20km-30km high, and it takes upwards of 2-5 years for CFC's emitted at ground level to reach the ozone layer where they start damaging it. And the once common R22 refrigerant CFC is lighter than air, not heavier like radon.Finally, although I haven't confirmed this, but a reference I read says that the total amount of radon in the entirety of Earth's atmosphere is only a few tens of grams.
Given radon's short half life, how little of it there is, and how long it takes ground level emissions to mix in the atmosphere to even reach the ozone layer at 20km, it's hard to envision how any appreciable amount of radon could get up to the ionosphere at 60km and have any effect at all.
Sorry.
So, I think we need to look for some other way that your measurements might be related to earthquakes.
Brian